Whats guy to Do!
 

Recently I asked what a guy is supposed to do when he feels the has gotten way less than he paid for in quality and service having a Model A engine rebuilt. That is the question I want answered.

Last fall I needed an engine and bought, sight unseen, a rebuilt one that was coming from a re-builder. Within 700 miles it was raining oil out the rear main. Every remedy was tried to slow the flow or understand why it was leaking so badly. The engine was pulled and it was discovered the the engine had a "old style rope rear main seal" and the slinger had been partially turned off to accommodate the modification. We had the rest of the slinger turned off and a cork main seal was installed but the bearings were not getting oil properly and the rear main started to melt. That was when the poor quality of the original pour came to light.

In my most recent phone call the builder said, "Whoa whoa whoa...I have never in my life installed a rope rear main seal in a Model A engine or modified a crank for one!" After much discussion and my suggesting I must be crazy because I certainly have one in this engine I got back from him he stated lamely that perhaps I got a engine sent from someone else and not the engine I sent. He said he did too many engines for the customer to expect to get back the same one.

Question: Did he in fact install a rope rear main seal and modify a crank IN THIS LIFE after all?

He did say that he would re-pour the main bearings in my engine for free if I would send it to him. The freight is nearly $400 there and back and I was not satisfied with his work the first time. Why would I send it back to him?

There is also the fact that he does not put oil grooves in either the caps or the block babbits. He claims they are not needed, that neither his grandfather nor his father put them in and he had had many discussions on whether they were needed at nation Model A meets and it was decided they were not needed. Decided by whom?

When I asked how the parts were supposed to get oil he mentioned chamforing (sp) the edges of the cap and block. "Besides...if you put the grooves in after they are poured 90% of the grooves are lost when the engine is line bored!" Give me a break? If you are wondering why I felt he was talking down to me that is the statement that did it.

Question: Does anyone out there DEFEND THE THEORY that oil grooves are not needed in Model A engines and did Henry use them? Does anyone cut the grooves in before they line bore?

Pick a question and answer it if you please. No I won't say who the builder is in an open forum and will only give my own opinion of who I would not use again if asked in a private message.

Re: Whats guy to Do!
 

I believe the oil grooves act as a reservoir.

Re: Whats guy to Do!
 

The oil grooves and oil wells are machined after the bearings are line bored. Henry and his engineers felt the grooves and wells were necessary or they wouldn't have gone to the time and effort to machine them. I trust their judgement and wisdom!

Re: Whats guy to Do!
 

This guy sounds like an incompetent, uninformed fraud. And if you don't get your engine back, how do you reconcile the numbers?

Re: Whats guy to Do!
 

I have an engine done by this same person and had a bad vibration problem and pulled the rods. No oil grooves and one rod was 21 grams heavier than the rest. I hope my mains have grooves. Its my fault to some extent since I assembled the engine so had no recourse. We don't need this in our hobby. Would some of the rebuilders on this site please respond about this problem. I don't think anybody on this forum wants to
spend $3000 on an engine and not feel comfortable. I am not starting a which hunt, but this kind of work needs to be know.

Re: Whats guy to Do!
 

Oil grooves are not reservoirs but act as a channel to feed the wells at the side of the block and cap.Without grooves the wells would soon starve for oil and create the heat you experienced that melted your mains. I don't know who decided they were not needed but they don't need to be allowed to touch a half inch wrench, much less the machines to pour and bore mains in a Model A. I know the builder and this is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to his work and shortcomings. I don't like to talk down other builders work but this one needs stopped whether by public opinion and reference or by lawsuit. He is a liar if nothing.

Re: Whats guy to Do!
 

Someone should name him so others do not get burned. If he wants to defend himself, let him try.

Re: Whats guy to Do!
 

I had my bearings repoured twice by a local "expert". PM me and I'll tell you who it was. First time they broke up after a few thousand miles and I had to pay full price for a repour: "This just happens sometimes". Then they failed again 3000 miles later! He offered to "make it right" but why would I risk the huge amount of work a third time? Did I get a refund on his admittedly faulty work? Sorry. Live and learn. It hurts but it's a life lesson I've had to suck up. It's not worth it to me to spend hours, $$$, and lost sleep to go to court. This time I went to a real pro I met on this forum and I'm comfortable that it will be the last time I redo the bottom end in my life. What did I learn? To do more research through resources like this wonderful one (fordbarn) before laying out the big dollars.

Re: Whats guy to Do!
 

What is being described here sounds an awful much like what I'm finding in my engine. It was "rebuilt" by a well known west coast builder around 1990, engine only has about 3000 miles on it. (only had 1500 on it when I bought it 2-1/2 years ago). First a rod shed it's babbitt. Next a valve broke. Now the mains are screwed up. Center cap was modified like no one here has ever seen before, has had thrust plates pinned on both sides to make up for no thrust in the rear cap. Babbitt in both center & rear started shedding big chunks, and there are no groves in any of the caps. I'm almost afraid of what's next!

Re: Whats guy to Do!
 

Elcastor, let's just say he is in the Atlanta, GA. area and used to do work for Mike's A-Ford-Able so there are lots of motors out there from him.

Re: Whats guy to Do!
 

Question: Does anyone out there DEFEND THE THEORY that oil grooves are not needed in Model A engines and did Henry use them? Does anyone cut the grooves in before they line bore?

Pick a question and answer it if you please. No I won't say who the builder is in an open forum and will only give my own opinion of who I would not use again if asked in a private message.[/QUOTE]

IvoryJohn: We feel for you. We got a customer like yourself in today.
You'll see in picture one worn out with about 700 miles on it.
This poor workmanship is happening more often it seems.

The grooves are there for a reason and serve an important purpose. Ford had a whole design team that engineered this engine and those grooves are there for a reason as is the oil wells.

FORD being the perverbial thrifty shrewd business man would of deleted them and saved 1 cent if he could have just like a lot of other parts on the Model A but they're there for a reason.

We would also like to know who said that you don't need the oil grooves? It's that Fifth column again.!

Adding the rope and cork is clearly amateur night.

Re: Whats guy to Do!
 

I agree! Ford didn't have the workers to put them in because they had 2 minutes of free time and he wanted them working. I also believe the wells and champhoring the oil holes is as important as the grooves and having the grooves connect the wells, that's the whole purpose of the system. To introduce oil to both sides of the bearing and provide a well of oil for the hydraulic wedge that the crank rides on. Clearly the photo shows substandard work in the motor sent to you. The babbitt in Ivoryjohn's motor had deteriorated to the point that the flywheel bolts had begun to rub the back of the main cap and aluminum seal. Never seen such bad work. I have pictures of the center and front main caps that show his work now and 15 years ago. I will post them tomorrow.

Re: Whats guy to Do!
 

Here is a 15 year comparison. The first picture is of a NOS block that Marco owns. Not the best picture but it does show the wells and the grooves that were put in at the factory.

Re: Whats guy to Do!
 

These next 4 pictures show the mains done for me about 15 years ago. The rear shattered because from my guess he used old babbitt or babbitt with lead. It could also have been from not checking the clearances before installing the caps permanently. The next 2 show the center and front caps which have no grooves or wells and one of them shattered. You can also see dimples in the babbitt. This is because he drills holes in the cap so as to stake the bearing much like Ford did in the cast iron block and rear main cap. This is because he does not know how to tin the forged caps to keep the babbitt in place.

Re: Whats guy to Do!
 

Now John's babbitt. The first is of the rear seal and the scuff made by the bolts in the flywheel. Next is the 2 pics of the center and front caps with the same dimples and no wells or grooves. Last is the rear main with what looks like a dimple at the rear. I haven't removed the babbitt but I think this dimple is from an old fix where someone drilled a hole into the return tube to help the oil drain without overwhelming the seal trough. Here also, no wells or in this, unlike mine, no grooves so the babbitt had not shattered. I think it was just a matter of time. The dimple may be the answer to the severe damage in the rear thrust. If the hole failed to seal before pouring, the return tube would be blocked and oil starvation would result. The most important thing is there are no grooves in the block even though there are wells of a sort. I don't think they are large enough but, that may be personal.

Re: Whats guy to Do!
 

7000 miles on my motor, no oil grooves.

Re: Whats guy to Do!
 

Time Bomb!

Re: Whats guy to Do!
 

Is it just me? I think refusing to name the guy who did this shoddy work is just ......wrong.

Re: Whats guy to Do!
 

No time bombs here. beautiful forum for KNOWLEDGE. Not heresay. You folks sound like you have built a thousand engines, but want to apply 21st technology to to a hundred year old motor. don't fix it if it isn't broken. Thousands of motors on the road with purring motors.

Re: Whats guy to Do!
 

Because it is incredibly false!!!!