16" Wheel-Markings Info Wanted
 

We have two 1946 thru '48-type, 4-1/2"-wide wheels that we've started prepping for paint. They are both identical in every respect and appear to have come off of the same car.

As can be seen in picture #2, both wheels are stamped with the Ford-in-oval logo. An initial light bead-blasting of the inner hoop on BOTH wheels revealed the expected, stamped sizes...16 X 4 1/2. The question here comes from the additional characters (identical/both wheels) stamped just after the size........"KN-T B5", and then "MADE IN-US". Note that the "B" is larger than the other characters.

Anyone have a clue what the "KN-T B5" would signify? Thank you...DD

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attach...8&d=1420822236

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attach...9&d=1420822323

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attach...5&d=1420823437

Re: 16" Wheel-Markings Info Wanted
 

I don't know about '47-'48, but I'll add what little I can. When I re-did (blasted and painted) the original wheels on my '51, I saw similar stampings on the inside. I am sure mine started with "KH", which I just assumed to be "Kelsey-Hayes" and that the alpha's after them were a date code of some sort (I believe Ford stamped their engines with alphabetic dates at least from '48 on; I have seen charts of the date equivalences). Are you sure it's an "N", not an "H"?

Re: 16" Wheel-Markings Info Wanted
 

Most definitely an "N", and so as not to confuse these with Kelsey Hayes-supplied wheels, I included the Ford script-in-oval picture. My point......I have a lot of these old Ford wheels. Many of them DO have a K-H or Kelsey-Hayes stamp, but when they are stamped as such, NONE has a "Ford" script anywhere on the wheel. These are Ford-produced wheels. I have a better picture of the "N", but I cannot get it to load-up. Thank you, though! DD

Re: 16" Wheel-Markings Info Wanted
 

OK girls and boys, one last pass for the weekend crowd, and ONE slight correction to the info I originally posted. A little more scraping revealed a "FoMoCo" inside the oval.......NOT a "Ford" script, on both of these wheels. Anyone have a definitive idea of exactly what these 16" X 4-1/2" wheels originally came on, or what the "K N-T B5" means? DD

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attach...7&d=1420905729

Re: 16" Wheel-Markings Info Wanted
 

I'm currently knee-deep in deciphering codes on wheels for '50s-'60s T-birds for a tech article being prepared for Vintage Thunderbird Club International's "Thunderbird Scoop" magazine, and admittedly there is still a lot I need to learn about them. Since the oval FoMoCo trademark started use some time after 1948, it's probably safe to assume the wheel was made for '49 or later. The 16 x 4 1/2's part number was 8A 1015-C and used on '49-'56s except station wagons and sedan deliveries.

Kelsey wheels usually have date stamps with numbers for the month and year, and may have a code for their plants starting with a K with a number from 1 to 3 or 5 (?) depending if it was made in their plants in Romulus, Michigan, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, or one in Canada. Motor Wheel plant codes start with a M and followed with a number for their plant. Kelsey wheels from the mid-late '50s have a circular stamp with the words "Kelsey Hayes" on the outer circumference and "Made in USA" in the center. I don't know codes for other manufacturers (yet).

One mark that has us stumped is a circular logo with a V flanked by what looks like a mirrored pair of line/arc/line segments that, if you look at it in the right frame of mind, appears to be the front of a woman between the neck and waist wearing a dress with a plunging neckline. There's usually a number or letter inside of the V. If anyone knows if this is for a trade/manufacturer's organization or something else, I'd love to learn more about it.

The letter following wheel size, K, is supposedly a code for the rim's profile (including how deep the tire bead mounting flanges are) and usage - usually passenger cars will have a J, JJ, JK or K. I don't know yet if they also are related to load rating, style or type of profile, such as drop-center. I haven't cracked these codes yet as we've found wheels of the same profile/dimensions and steel thicknesses but yet they had either a J, JK or K after the size.

I suspect, based on what all I've read to date, that N-T may be initials for the wheel manufacturer, but I currently only know of Motor Wheel (MW) and Kelsey Hayes (KH). B5 may be a code for the plant that manufactured/assembled the wheels. It might be that other codes might also related to style of center "spyder" used, size of center hub opening, or backspacing (distance from inboard face of rim to mounting face of the rim to the hub/brake drum). Again, more research needs to be done to sort through all these codes.

Re: 16" Wheel-Markings Info Wanted
 

If you use the HAMB there's a fellow who knows early wheels inside out. Goes by "Wheelkid".

Re: 16" Wheel-Markings Info Wanted
 

Just because the wheel has the Ford script or FoMoCo doesn't mean it was manufactured by Ford. They often required their outside suppliers to put the script on the part. Take a look at the Bendix backing plates. There is one place it says Bendix and another spot on the same backing plate for the Ford script.

Re: 16" Wheel-Markings Info Wanted
 

Here's a pic of what I think Alt63 is describing as far as the "woman's body" mark, also typical K-H marking, no question who made it. Coopman, are your wheels riveted or welded? They look later than 48 to me.

Re: 16" Wheel-Markings Info Wanted
 

alt63bird ........Wow, that's some elaborate info. I knew that Ford had registered the "FoMoCo" trademark in November 1948, which would realistically preclude these being "production" 1948 wheels. I had a knowledgeable 'Barner PM me that these were probably "service replacement wheels" manufactured by an outside supplier sometime AFTER 1948. I really appreciate your input! I also appreciate the info from Randy in ca and TJ . DD

Re: 16" Wheel-Markings Info Wanted
 

Hmm. Some late '40's-on GM wheels were made be Kelsey-Hayes Norris Technologies. Your wheel clearly has "NT" stamped on the front where others would have "K-H". Maybe a later contract for for Ford supply?

Lonnie

Re: 16" Wheel-Markings Info Wanted
 

I think maybe we've got a BINGO, Binx ! I had noticed the "NT" stamped on the front of these wheels, but thought nothing of it, and I had certainly never heard of Norris Technologies before today. A little history on N-T was easily verifiable.

It's amazing some of the trivial facts that many of us collect and remember (or forget) over the years, and this is one of those instances when such would come into play if the right person noticed this thread. I'm now reasonably satisfied that these were service replacement wheels, and most-likely made by N-T. Thank you, Lonnie! DD

Re: 16" Wheel-Markings Info Wanted
 

And Ross F-1 .......Thanks to you also. These wheels are riveted centers. These wheels have a similar "woman"-like stamping, except that there is no number like the "8" in yours. Nowhere on these wheels is there a K-H or Kelsey-Hayes stamp, though. DD

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/attach...3&d=1420913670

Re: 16" Wheel-Markings Info Wanted
 

No problem! Weird I can remember this but have no clue where my Dremel tool is......

Lonnie

Re: 16" Wheel-Markings Info Wanted
 

The "J" and other similar codes refer to a wheel's 5° drop center rim profile. All of these codes were standardized by the industry's Tire and Rim Association. Each year they published a manual containing all the rim sizes, tire sizes, load and pressure ratings, etc.

I have a pretty nice library of wheel and rim references dating from 1927 to the 1990s when things went on-line. I have Budd, K-H, Motor Wheel, and Firestone/Accu-rude (later just Accuride) catalogs as well as National Wheel and Rim Association catalogs. I've read where guys have offered the opinion that Ford produced their own wheels in some instances, but have seen no reference to support that. It's been my understanding that Ford (as with all vehicle manufacturers) sub'd wheels to the third party suppliers. NWRA and manufacturer catalogs will cross refer their numbers to the corresponding Ford part number. If someone has an authoritative reference showing that Ford produced its wheels in addition to use of the third parties I'd appreciate knowing it. No opinions please, references. If I can help with any research I'll be happy to do so. Stu

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/l...psfdctzjof.jpg

Re: 16" Wheel-Markings Info Wanted
 

Here's what the logos signify. Stu

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/l...psb5o0r3x1.jpg

Re: 16" Wheel-Markings Info Wanted
 

Stu.....I too have never seen authoritative reference to Ford-produced wheels, although I ASS-U-MED as much all of these years, along with the interspersing of outside suppliers like Budd and K-H in the earlier days. Your question about this is well-taken.

I'm curious as to what the "K" represents on your page above in the left hand column under RIM SIZE, such as 4 1/2-K, 5-K, 5 1/2-K, and 6-K? Thanks for taking the time! DD


Stu.......In re-reading your original info, does the "K" reference the drop center profile in number of degrees?

Re: 16" Wheel-Markings Info Wanted
 

WOW.......There's the answer to the earlier-referenced "woman-like" trademark. It's an industry-type mark referencing a TYPE of wheel construction, and could naturally be seen stamped on DIFFERENT manufacturers' wheels. Thanks a lot for that.....GOOD info! DD

Re: 16" Wheel-Markings Info Wanted
 

Here's another page from a different year (1969 iirc) showing the JJ and others. I'll have to do some reading to see if they explain the reasoning behind the coding. My gut impression has been that the codes were assigned depending upon needed positioning of the center disc to achieve offset/back spacing requirements for different applications. Stu

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/l...ps8dzldsma.jpg

Re: 16" Wheel-Markings Info Wanted
 

Just to show another example of an industry logo, here's the logo on one of my NOS Goodyear Power Wagon side rings. Stu

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/l...ingMarking.jpg

Re: 16" Wheel-Markings Info Wanted
 

Man, you know some stuff. Much-appreciated, Stu. DD